torque converter slip actual vs desired

I found the cause of the P0325 and P0330 error codes. How ever this did happen right after I did the six 0 to 60 mph relearn runs. This is a session cookie that verifies that the user has entered valid user credentials pending receipt of the correct authentication code; the cookie normally expires when the user closes their browser (or other user agent). The issues of slippage and heat are the main reasons that street converters should be approached with a serious amount of compromise when it comes to stall speed. Wilson pre-selectors were pretty well established technology, although not common, by the late 30s. Google, Google Analytics, and other related marks and logos are trademarks of Google LLC.). A malfunctioning torque converter can have a shudder that comes from the transmission. The valve was pushed open or closed by opposing pressures generated by a throttle-controlled valve and a centrifugal governor driven by the output shaft. Now that we have DISCONTINUED our use of Google Analytics tracking on this website, this cookie no longer functions no additional analytics data will be collected, with or without the cookie. Primary symptom includes a "rumble strip" like sound randomly while driving at speeds of about 40+. Clutch material, bearing and bushing pieces, and a shiny metal flake appearance will be an indicator that things are coming apart inside. there were around 6 defaults that popped up. Its job is to smoothly convert engine torque into hydraulic pressure that your transmission uses to engage and shift gears. If your car transmission keeps overheating, you may also notice your transmission starts to act funny, or it may even go into fail date and stay in one gear and not shift at all. The problems come in many sizes, shapes, and forms. It is the lack of fluid that causes overheating, slipping, or shuddering. For more information about how Akamai may collect, process, and/or use personal data, visit the Akamai "Privacy and Policies" page and Privacy Trust Center. Diagnosing a potential Torque Converter problem with a Scan tool. For more information, please see our A Simpson gearset (which Ill be discussing in great detail in the next few days) provides the same number of ratios from only two gearsets, and a single Ravigneaux gearset can give you four forward speeds and reverse if you have enough clutches. When I replaced my transmission and converter, I replaced two mounts and the two dog bones under the engine. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Unlike a clutch where a friction plate makes physical contact with another plate and ideally the two rotate at exactly the same speed when fully engaged. Although this arrangement sacrificed some of the smoothness that was the main rationale for early automotive torque converter transmissions, it made Ultramatic more efficient than the early Dynaflow, at least at cruising speeds. What to Do to Fix Your Contaminated Transmission Fluid. Submitting a comment signifies your acceptance of our. This is not an official website of any automaker or automotive brand! One of the fundamental differences between a fluid clutch (a fluid coupling or torque converter) and a mechanical plate clutch is slippage. register to join our community (Those pages do not currently discuss the storage of data in your browser (or other user agent) using technologies other than cookies, e.g., in web storage.) They normally expire after about one year. Unlike a reduction gear, this speed reduction doesnt multiply engine torque. Remember, you don't experience either symptom unless you have the wrong amount of fluid or the wrong fluid in the transmission. When you have contaminated transmission fluid that has bits of this and that in it This is an indication that you have bigger problems inside the converter or transmission. 6 speed/8 speed RWD/FWD Transmission Tuning (incl T43, T76, T87) T43 Torque Converter Desired Slip. Currently the vehicle is much better to drive. It took the addition of a small device called the stator to increase the efficiency of the fluid coupling and transform it into a torque converter. For example, in park, it will say Desired Slip 1200, Actual: 730 (guess the engine rpm) As speed increases, the Desired Slip drops (don't remember exact numbers) as well as the actual. How exactly are you measuring how much the tc is slipping? If the fluid becomes contaminated, anything that uses and relies on the fluid can be damaged. ), This cookie was set if you clicked the "Disable Google Analytics Tracking" link to prevent the Google Analytics service from tracking your use of the Ate Up With Motor website. As the new owner of a 92 Alante with the viscous clutch I wondered what the difference was. Off.).) This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register. Petrol / Gas. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Logging in sets the wordpress_logged_in_xx, wordpress_sec_xx, and/or wordpress_xx cookies, which store the user's login credentials to allow access to the administrative dashboard and other administrative functions; there may be multiple iterations of each cookie. But the catch is that this torque multiplication doesn't last very long. Being a fluid coupler, your car's torque converter relies on transmission fluid to operate correctly. I had "guessed" that it could have been a valve body issue when trying to diagnose on my own and I replaced that to no avail. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Most street cars cannot keep the rear tires from spinning if you add too much throttle, and this tends to limit the stall speed. The turbine drives the front annulus through the input shaft (medium blue). Input output shaft readings are almost exactly the same when driving. That includes the advanced manufacturing technology being used in optimizing torque converters. The space ahead of the clutch formed a hydraulic cylinder containing an annular steel piston that acted as a pressure plate. Such cookies and/or stored data items may be set by various domains (such as, though not necessarily limited to, youtube.com; youtube-nocookie.com; googlevideo.com; ytimg.com; google.com; accounts.google.com; www.googleadservices.com; and/or doubleclick.net, which is part of the DoubleClick advertising service, also owned by Google LLC). The iThemes Security plugin may also set the itsec-hb-login-xx cookie, which helps to protect the site against "brute force" hacking attempts; that cookie normally expires in about one hour. by Silver Flex SEL. If it does go let us know. If you correctly enter the password, the site saves this cookie on your device to allow you access to the password-protected post or page. For more information about Google advertising, see the "Advertising" section of their Google Privacy & Terms site. My SunCoast converter has a little slip. On early Ultramatic-equipped Packards, the lockup clutch would not engage until road speed reached at least 15 mph (24 km/h) even on a light throttle. Required fields are marked *. 4. The usual strategy is to disengage the clutch at idle (or just off idle) and during acceleration and then then engage the clutch for cruising. I just checked it yesterday and it was right at the full indicator with the transmission properly warmed up. In first, the low band and one-way clutches held both sun gears, causing the ring gears to drive the planet carrier and output shaft at 43.3% of turbine speed (1 / 2.31). 91.234.33.200 All engine power flows through the mechanical clutch directly to the input shaft. Another fascinating article, thank you for all your effort! 1. and 2. This viscous connection is transmission fluid. The stock converter wouldn't with a big tune unless I was cruising at light throttle. Transmission Range) start a datalog or have an assistant drive and watch Torque Converter Slip Actual (TCA) and Torque Converter Slip Desired (TCD). The first automatic transmissions employed what was called a fluid coupling to connect the crankshaft with the transmission. Basically, the fluid exits the center of the turbine and is redirected by the stator back into the impeller. This and the GM automatic history are probably the most definitive descriptions of these technologies on the Internet, excepting pure design and engineering treatises. I re-used the "new" valve body and decided to try out my original solenoid pack to avoid having to reprogram the PCM with the new calibration for the solenoid pack that came with the recycled transmission. Also, as we explained in the sidebar of our article on GMs other early automatic transmissions, torque converters utilize the speed difference between the driving and driven torus members to multiply engine torque. JavaScript is disabled. That isnt true of a fluid clutch, whose torus members are free to rotate at different speeds. Do you want them slipping when driving? The turbine and lockup clutch driven plate are both splined to the transmission input shaft (medium blue). We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. Really bad shuddering under acceleration, etc. I changed the transmission fluid (Mercon LV) at 63k miles back in 2017. In the early Studebaker Automatic Drive (Borg-Warner DG) transmission, the flywheel drives the torque converter impeller, front pump, and lockup clutch pressure plate (red). Cloudflare Ray ID: 7c0ed4b2fd769016 Second, consider draining and filling the transmission a few times since you can't get all the fluid out with just one drain/fill cycle. Once your torque converter starts failing, you need to be knowledgeable about what torque converter problems will disable your car? The original Packard Ultramatic had a four-element torque converter with a single stator (light blue) interposed between the first- and second-stage turbines, providing a stall ratio of 2.4:1 at 1,600 rpm. One thing Ive always wondered about was if any manufacturers looked into Wilson pre-selector gearboxes as a basis of an automatic. This is why lifting off the throttle in a car with a fluid coupling or torque converter can feel almost like shifting into neutral. by SirHandyMan Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:43 am, Post You also need to move forward with viable options that will help you get your torque converter fixed. scheme, but it does contribute. This is due in part to the technological advances in torque converters. California residents also have the Right to Opt-Out of the sale of their personal information see the Do Not Sell My Personal Information page. These torque converters allow some slippage but it should not vary much from the desired PCM value. I no longer monitor the forum, please either post your question or create a, I am just trying to see how the management of this company can justify ignoring, or walking away from the T43 stuff right now, I am aware of the size of the Dodge Diesel market.I for one do not care about Dodge Cummins products, I have turned so many of my customers onto EFI Live from HPT or SCT that it kills me to have to tune a TCM with one software and ECM with another. For a drag-race car, the cost of this additional slippage is worth the price, but for a street car it creates other problems. The wire chaffing is a definite possibility. It may not display this or other websites correctly. This slowly turns the blades of the driven fan in the same direction. Unsurprisingly, each engagement or disengagement of the lockup clutch felt like a shift, giving less technically knowledgeable drivers the mistaken impression that Ultramatic was a two-speed automatic. The wahFontColor and wahBgColor cookies, which are set if you alter the site's color scheme, normally expire after about 14 days, but you can remove them immediately by clicking the "Restore Defaults" button on the sidebar. Well Aaron . When coasting, the turbine overruns the impeller, which causes slippage, but relatively little braking effect. PLEASE DON'T SUBMIT COPYRIGHTED CONTENT YOU AREN'T AUTHORIZED TO USE! By contrast, a fluid clutch always slips at least a little. If you are experiencing shuddering, also check your engine mounts. (Google, DoubleClick, YouTube, and other related marks and logos are trademarks of Google LLC. One is turned by the enginge. The annulus (purple) is held in reverse, idles in low, and rotates with the sun gears in direct drive. This is a very slick trick and can be worth up to 2.5 times engine torque! 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These a11y cookies normally expire after about seven days, but are removed immediately if you restore the applicable settings to their default values. by SirHandyMan Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:27 pm, Post Trailer Towing, Other; Brakes, Electrical, Hitches, Weight Distribution & CDL Discussion, Pre-Power Stroke Diesel (7.3L IDI & 6.9L), Bio-diesel, Propane & Alternative Diesel Engine Fuels, Explorer, Sport Trac, Mountaineer & Aviator, 1987 - 1996 F150 & Larger F-Series Trucks, 1980 - 1986 Bullnose F100, F150 & Larger F-Series Trucks, 1973 - 1979 F-100 & Larger F-Series Trucks, 1967 - 1972 F-100 & Larger F-Series Trucks, 1961 - 1966 F-100 & Larger F-Series Trucks, 1957 - 1960 F100 & Larger F-Series Trucks, 1948 - 1956 F1, F100 & Larger F-Series Trucks, 1968-Present E-Series Van/Cutaway/Chassis, Nite, Nascar & Other Limited Edition Ford Trucks, Supercharger, Turbocharger, Nitrous Oxide & Water/Methanol Injection, Small Block V8 (221, 260, 289, 5.0/302, 5.8/351W), Big Block V8 - 385 Series (6.1/370, 7.0/429, 7.5/460), FE & FT Big Block V8 (332, 352, 360, 390, 406, 410, 427, 428), 335 Series- 5.8/351M, 6.6/400, 351 Cleveland, Y-Block V8 (239, 272, 292, 312, 317, 341, 368), Audio & Video Systems, Navigation, Satellite Radio & Mobile Electronics, Bed Covers, Tonneau covers, Toppers/Canopies & Bed liners, Brakes, Steering, Suspension, Tires, & Wheels, Fuel Injection, Carburetion & Fuel System, Vendor Specials, Discounts, Product Announcements & Group Buys, ? When you experience fluid leaks, you aren't retaining the amount of transmission fluid; the torque converter needs to transfer the power from the engine to the transmission. 3. and 5. A reverse band surrounds a brake drum connected to the front carrier, which is also integral with the rear annulus (orange). If the solenoid is not regulating the fluid flow properly, it could cause variability in the torque converter clutch performance as well. New to the site and found it because of this read. Performance & security by Cloudflare. Once the brakes (or the transbrake) is released and the vehicle begins to move, the turbine spins up and the speed difference between the two diminishes. copyright 2023 AAMCO transmissions inc. Ive been troubleshooting a low RPM with light acceleration shudder on my 2011 EcoBoost Flex. With automated hydraulic operation and combinations of brakes and clutches, it was possible to get the same results more efficiently. the only readings i got was for all the electronically controlled aod. Well done and thank you; this must have been an enormous amount of work. The _gat cookie, which may appear as _gat_gtag_UA_6113964_2, was sometimes set along with the _ga and _gid cookies to control how frequently requests were sent to the Google Analytics servers; this cookie typically persisted for only a few minutes at a time. When you coast in gear, the transmission attempts to drive the engine crankshaft, whose inertia causes a braking effect. Whether it will add to my working knowledge is debatable, but my brain will benefit from the workout. The impellers spun by the engine's crankshaft. If the payment button is visible, it may set the third-party cookies PYPF (via paypalobjects.com, which is owned by PayPal, Inc.), which appears to check whether or not you are a logged-in PayPal user, possibly to facilitate the PayPal user login process, and/or 01A1 (via abmr.net, which is owned by Akamai Technologies), which stores certain technical information about your device and browser (or other user agent), possibly to facilitate the login and shopping cart functions. You can hide the "Support Ate Up With Motor" box and prevent the loading of its embedded content by going to the "Consent Management" tab and switching the "Allow PayPal Button" toggle to "OFF." With Torque Pro torque slip shows it at 0-6 rpm at 60 mph and when coming to a stop it jumps to 25-40 rpm then raises to 1400+. The drive fan moves air across the blades of the driven fan (which is turned off). The fluid did not look dirty. Privacy Policy. 7.3L Power Stroke - Aftermarket & Performance. Members can start their own topics & subscribe to topics Opening the throttle further could delay engagement to a maximum of 56 mph (90 km/h). Think of a lock TC as the clutches in your tranny. I would be surprised if this is your issue at 81,000 miles. All site content Copyright 2007-var year=new Date(); year=year.getYear(); if (year<1900) year+=1900; document.write(year); FordFlex.net FordFlex.net is in no way affiliated with Ford Motor Company. To learn more about the specific cookies used and/or to fine-tune your available choices, click "Privacy Preferences" at the right. Tuning. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. The slipping occurs while you're driving or changing gears, and it usually comes with some odd noises too. For example, if engine speed is 2,500 rpm, the turbine might only turn 2,375 rpm: hydraulic slippage of 5%. If you delete or disable these cookies, your existing preferences will be lost and you may not be able to save your privacy settings for this website. Some vehicles have a transmission temperature indicator that will let you know when your car's transmission is overheating. I did the trans relearn today with the Spartan 275 tune. Heat is the enemy of any automatic transmission and will radically reduce its life span if not mediated by an efficient trans cooler. In addition, all page headers, custom graphics, button icons, and scripts related to the PayPal services are service marks, trademarks, and/or trade dress of PayPal. For comparison, a four-speed Wilson pre-selector has four planetary gearsets, four sets of brake bands, and a cone clutch, which is a lot of pieces. All other trademarks and/or service marks are the property of their respective owners. 2. When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. *. A 5 percent slippage factor means that if the impeller is spinning 3,000 rpm, the turbine is only spinning 2,850, or 5 percent slower. Like the contemporary Buick Dynaflow, Ultramatic was designed to operate most of the time in its direct drive top gear. Some electrical tape and some plastic wire loom may solve your issue entirely. (Vimeo and the Vimeo logos are trademarks of Vimeo.com, Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries. Any slip is bad. (At present, this setting does NOT affect the payment or donation buttons that may appear on portions of the site's administrative dashboard, nor does hiding the box affect any cookies that may have already been set). It stayed there(18.24) from 60mph to 90 when I let off of it. mroberthowell 4 yr. ago Thank you so much! Starting in Drive provided a maximum starting ratio of 3.10:1 (a mechanical ratio of 1.44:1 times a nominal torque converter stall ratio of 2.16:1 at around 1,600 rpm), which was better than the early Ultramatic or Dynaflow, but still made for lazy performance, especially with Studebakers six-cylinder engine. Your IP: Lockup clutches were used in some nonautomotive torque converters before World War II, but the first regular-production automotive application was the 1949 Packard Ultramatic Drive, which established a model for subsequent transmission designs. When the torque converter starts malfunctioning, you may feel shuddering and even slipping in overdrive. Most street torque. U.S. Pat. * Various services, specials, or coupon offers are available at participating locations only. Except as otherwise indicated, all written content and images are copyright Aaron Severson dba Ate Up With Motor. Impeller Pump The impeller pump receives the transmission fluid once it's delivered. Once the vehicle is moving at a constant speed, the speed difference between the impeller and turbine diminishes, eventually reaching a minimum point known as coupling stage. If you change certain aspects of the site's appearance using the accessibility sidebar, it may set these cookies to manage and remember your settings. The effective dates of the current versions are: Paid advertisements and/or sponsored links on Ate Up With Motor will be identified with words such as "Sponsor," "Sponsors," "Sponsored Link(s)," "Sponsored Content," "Ad," "Advertisement," "Advertisement(s)," or "Paid Promotion" (and/or by images or icons containing such words). The reason for increasing stall speed is directly related to the engine's torque curve. At stall speed, the impeller is spinning at engine rpm and the turbine is stopped. On some prewar bus and rail car transmissions with lockup torque converters, the lockup clutch was engaged manually, but automotive lockup clutches are designed to engage and disengage automatically. Utimately, I installed a recycled transmission from a junk yard and a remanufactured torque converter from Ford. If you shop at Amazon.com (for anything), use this link to support FordFlex.net! AAMCO Centers are independently owned and operated. The good news is, if it is just your torque converter that is having issues since it's a self-contained unit, you may not need to replace or rebuild your whole transmission. It ran pretty good. A spring-loaded plunger valve controlled oil flow to the lockup clutchs hydraulic cylinder. For additional technical information about the cookies used by the analytics service, see their "Google Analytics Cookie Usage on Websites" page; for your reference when reviewing that page, we did not use Google Analytics 4. The end result is the torque converterisn't able to transferthat power completely and efficiently from the engine to the transmission. I was monitoring some Torque converter params for my 4R55E with my in dash scantool. Overdrive ratios drive the torque converter at speeds generally below normal coupling speed, creating increased slippage and heat, which is unacceptable. That's because torque converters transfer the power your car engine makes to the transmission in your car. If your going over ten your gonna need a new torque converter fairly soon..depends how you drive.. my converter started off slipping at about 13 on the 275 and ended up wearing out pretty quick and it began slipping like 45-50 on the gauge. Google, AdSense, Google AdSense, Google Analytics, and other related marks and logos are trademarks of Google LLC. (author diagram). Thanks for copying the information from my other post here. These early units operated on the same principal of using one electric fan to drive another. Unless you have tune that keeps the converter unlocked, the converter should've locked. Change Background Color (Note: This option sets cookies on your device to manage your color settings; see the Cookie Notice for details.). To avoid stalling or lugging the engine, the clutch would automatically disengage if road speed fell below 13 mph (21 km/h). You must be at least 18 to comment. The DG series transmissions obtained their indirect ratios with a compound planetary gearset. The vehicle suffered a torque converter failure at around 140k miles. In this installment of Ate Up With Motor, we take a look at how GM, Ford, Chrysler, Packard, and Studebaker have approached this slippery problem from 1949 through the late eighties. Since the transmission was largely dependent on the torque converter for torque multiplication, it was crucial that the lockup clutch not engage prematurely and that there be some means to immediately disengage it for acceleration. As an example, replace your spark plugs if they are original, replace air filter, replace PCV valve. 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